Talking Shop about BIM

All right. Hello and welcome to the construction corner podcast. I'm Dylan on your host and we got a few, well, one guest today, and then my, I got to work on our, my intro mat on what the hell I'm going to say now, since I've been sitting there for so long, but Matt is here with us today, Matt. How's it going, man?

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Fantastic. It's been a great day. Freezing cold here in Southeast Michigan, but got a lot done and happy to be here.

Yeah, man. It's I just got done with my 75 hard outdoor walk. It's a snow sleet in here. It's I dunno, 34, I guess something above freezing. Cause it's not snowing. And like it's just what cold miserable out, but Hey, you gotta, gotta get it done.

Yeah. It was a high of 20 here today and it's just turned into an icy Tundra, you know, not nothing works. It's just ice everywhere. It's fun.

And today, so we are, do have a, another guest on if you're watching live here on Facebook at LinkedIn or YouTube, you know, we've got another guest, but Andy is also joining us from the mitten of the Midwest and third generation in his in construction.

So I mean, construction basically runs in his blood, which we'll hear all about today. Before Mandy got into the industry, just aspire to be an architect engineer. And we'll, we'll talk about where you went awry in that whole plan today. But. When it worked his way through, on the contractor construction side of the construction industry and gaining his career as a draftsman and just has witnessed the whole evolution of construction, which we all know I'm passionate about on the, on the evolution of how we put together buildings and do design, but from, you know, 2d, AutoCAD to modern day 5g, BIM and coordination, laser scanning reality capture robotics, automated layout solutions, and.

Really is an avid user day in, day out. So Andy Zeller, welcome to construction corner podcast.

Thanks guys. I appreciate it to say the least. I'm excited to talk shop.

Awesome. Glad to have you, Andy. Appreciate it, especially nice to bring another Michigan guy up here. Well,

don't go that far. Actually, I grew up in Omaha.

I'm in the people's Republic of Michigan right now because yeah.

You and me both, man. Yeah.

I'm probably ahead of you in California here. So we're coming for you, right? Close second.

I think lately, Hey, stay at home. Got lifted.

So. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We, we finally got to the point where we can go to restaurant.

Well, when's that start mad? Is it two days?

I think it's Monday. Whenever the

first is. Yeah. Yeah. So, but it's 25% and all that. Yeah. So that's a whole nother conversation. Yes.

Yeah. It's not for this podcast, you know, we're, we're in construction. We can still work.

But now Andy, tell us a little bit about your family. What got you into the construction? What your, maybe what your grandpa did in construction and a little bit on that story.

So way back when, obviously long before I was around at least my dad's dad they, they own a lumber yard out in Western Nebraska.

Being way out in the middle of nowhere, basically, if you sell, would you know how to build things apparently, and if you're selling nails, you know how to actually install them. So kind of by default, they were also the general contractor in the area, putting up grain bins houses, you know, you need fences done, all that kind of stuff.

Back then they didn't really have a whole lot of code, you know, that was. It just, it was what it was back then. Right. Really, you got your good word of mouth in you. You got known in the industry, as long as the stuff you built didn't fall down. So it was, it was definitely a quality based industry back then.

From there, my dad also went to school for construction management ever since I was little, honestly, some of my first memories growing up. Nailed me to a roof because I refuse to not be on the ground while they were up shingling. My grandparent's house. Actually nailed the tail of my shirt to the roof, so I wouldn't fall off while they were actually off working.

I remember walking through big commercial job sites. He worked for one of the largest general contractors in the world at the time. Working, you know, walking through those job sites, being told, don't look at the welders Ark you know, don't touch that, make sure you don't trip on that. So going through that, you know, I just, just kind of followed my dad's footsteps.

I always knew I wanted to be in construction. Everybody else was coloring Superman and Batman coloring books. I got my dad's leftover blueprints and as pack of highlighters, and that was my coloring book. So., I knew always all along that I was going to be in construction one way or another. Found out that my school at the time my high school also had a CAD program.

So got into that doing auto CAD. I had already met with AutoCAD before. Obviously had no idea what I was doing until I actually got training, but it was enough to get interested in it. So went into that program, thought I want to be an architect. Actually, I went to multiple schools trying to figure out, you know, did the whole school tours and all that found out.

I really didn't want to be an architect. I want to be more of an engineer side. Life happened. That was, I graduated high school in Oh five and the economy in Michigan had already started going a little bit South on stuff. So we ended up moving back to Nebraska. Then ended up going back to school at all.

I had, I graduated high school with a vocational certificate for CAD, excuse me. And that honestly kind of took me to where I am today. The rest of it's all for the most part, been more on the job training kind of stuff. Little classes here and there, manufacturer training, stuff like that. So went to.

I don't know a handful I've been in manufacturing. I've been in obviously construction anywhere from the architect to the engineer, to the actual contractor side, went back to manufacturing for a little bit then went back into construction. And then, I mean, Matt Dillon, you guys are both in construction, obviously on different sides of the.

You know, let's be honest, there's kind of this us versus them mentality that I'm sure we can talk about, but

we all know it's there. We're just willing to talk about it.

Right. Sometimes more, more loudly than the other guy, but yeah, it's. It's a very real thing. That's out there. And I found out that I'm much more comfortable on the contractor side, you know, through the experiences engineers, look at certain things, contractors.

Yeah. Look at other things. And at the end of the day, I mean, even in manufacturing at which is another thing, I'm sure we'll be talking about where construction is turning more and more into manufacturing. Used to be when I started, you could draw something and in nine months in construction, you were lucky if you even got to go to a job site to go see what you actually designed and drew because by that time, by the time something was actually built, you were already working on, you know, two, three, even four projects down the road.

As long as it was kind of those, no news is good news situations. Whereas in manufacturing I can draw something in within 12 to 24 hours. I can physically hold that part in my hand. So that was always extremely rewarding for me. But again, going back into construction, just being in that more throughout my lifetime, I was able to.

I can go to a, to a job site and I can talk to the guys in the field. I've never hung a piece of pipe. I've never been a piece of sheet metal. I've never hammered a nail into a stud. But when I talked to those guys, they know what I'm saying, and I know what they're saying a lot more so than in manufacturing.

So this is where I am now. This is where I'm going to stay. Whether I like it or not, that, you know, construction is where I'm going to end up. So You know, with that being said, though, throughout that process, when I first started with AutoCAD, it was, you know, like you kind of alluded to in that beautiful bio Dylan the, I started off with 2d AutoCAD back in the day.

And that was really, you know, when you think about it, AutoCAD was a glorified handcrafting, right?

Well, hold on, before we get into that. So one of the big things that, that mats super passionate about. Is, you know, not only building better, but making the trades cool again. So like in this it's I guess I wanna, I want to hit on a couple points here.

One that look engineering, architecture is not for everybody. And like you realize that early on and there's, you know, there in construction, there's, there's no bad job, right? Like it's, there's some shitty ones, like, but. There's, there's not a bad spot. We need everybody. And then it's the, the biggest thing too, that we want to instill is there's always ways to get better.

Right? You got to start somewhere and there's, there's always ways to get better. But the point that I want to kind of hit on it and Matt feel free to jump in here is the vocational program, like how instrumental was that for you to have in high school? And to, to really learn, you know, not only CAD, but CAD in a way that allows you to kind of jump into an industry.

You know, like my high school didn't have it. And I'm sure there's tons of bicycles that, that don't right. Not just like, not every high school has FFA. Not every high school is going to have a vocational program. So how instrumental was, was that program for you?

That honestly, to me, Not exaggerating at all changed my life.

If I did not have that program, then there's a very good chance that I, I can promise you. There's no way that I would be where I am today. Even if I was making the same amount of money now, as if I went down that other path, making the same amount of money now, as I would, obviously what I'm doing now I'd have $200,000 in student loans.

You know, but by the time I got out of high school, I had a vo-tech certificate. I already had a full year worth of, co-op so it was basically working part-time I think I was putting in 20, 30 hours a week during my senior year. My entire senior year. My first block was co-op. Second block was a free because I already had all my credits done.

And then my third block was lunch. So I literally, I would go into the shop at five 30, six o'clock in the morning. I didn't have to be back to school until my third block. Which was, I don't know what, 1231 o'clock. So five days a week for that entire time I was working, getting actual work experience, getting the credit and.

So, yeah, there's not a whole lot of other programs that you can do that for. So, so

going to that, how was it generally accepted when in your school? Because first of all, I'm gonna rewind real quick. I don't throw out any of my old plans. They all go to my three boys and they color it shit out of them.

And it's great. But back to your, to your point. So I'm a little bit older than, than both of you when I was in high school. You know where I was, first of all, voc-tech I don't think there was any construction related aspect of it, period. And to be quite honest, I mean, the voc-tech in my day was like the burnouts and that's how it was at least that's how it was looked at by everyone.

So how, from your standpoint, you know, you got into the cabin and the little construction side, how was it looked at? Was it that still have that kind of stigma to it? Or was it starting to lighten up a little bit?

Honestly, not really. I think part of it was because the high school, I went to the, I guess the actual vo-tech certificate program, wasn't technically part of the high school is put on by the school district.

So we had all the surrounding high schools would go to this. Now that kicker to it for me, is that our ISD, what are our, yeah, our ISD offices, I guess, was in the same building as the high school. So all I had to do is walk through a second set of doors and I was there. I didn't have to worry about actually driving.

The other aspect of that, probably the bigger one was that you actually cannot even apply for any of these classes, unless you already had all your high school credits done. So my senior year I think I had to take one or two actual classes to complete my full high school curriculum and requirements.

And so that's why I was able to get into Ted and why I was able to actually go to the co-op. So.

So could people take like so if they let's say it took them their full, like senior year, four years to complete all their stuff, could they take a, like a gap year? I don't know what to call it, but like another year you can go do the vocational program or if, cause like, you know, you turn 18, usually they kick you out.

Like how

did that work? So as far as getting your curriculum hours in. Like your credit hours. I think, like I said, I still had to do some stuff my senior year. I didn't fail any of my classes, so no matter what I was still going to have to go my senior year, I think part of it though, too, is like the actual physical number of hours that you're in a school building.

So that played into it. So I don't think you could really take a gap year, but because of the way that our school was structured. You could either go to this vo-tech school, which, I mean, we had building trades, which you are actually out like habitat for humanity kind of stuff, putting up a building.

We had an electrician's school where they had half of it was like PCBs. The other half was actual like residential, commercial wiring. You have machine shop, you had CAD, you had autotech, you had wood shop, stuff like that. So I consider it the, the fun school for, for lack of a better for others. But as far as the trying to get the best way to word it, as far as like the stigma around it, I don't want to say that we were the elite of the elite, you know, the best of the best, just because we had it.

It was, I think it was more for the kids. And I know you guys have touched on this in previous episodes where, you know, college isn't for everybody. And I learned real quick. I mean, even in high school, I'm like, why do I have to take two years of chemistry and Spanish to go get a CAD certificate and pay $70,000 for it, right.

To go, essentially, go get a job that was going to start me off at 14 bucks an hour. That just, it didn't ever really make sense to me. So I'm like, I'm going to take every opportunity I can to get just through this so I can actually go start making money in the real world. So I think I had a little bit different mentality about it.

A little bit different perspective than a lot of the students. Now don't get me wrong. There were a lot of kids that, you know, like you were saying, Matt, you know, some of them seem like burnouts, you know, they like working on cars and it was just a blow off class to them. But I think for the most part, those of us who actually went through it did take it fairly seriously.

Like we knew we wanted to do something in that field. So. That's

that's good to hear because frankly, we need a lot more of that. You know, there I'm on the East side of the state and there's some, some local districts around here that are, are really stepping up and offering programs like that. For construction, for fire academies, for police, you know, all sorts of things that kids can get in in high school and, and come out of high school at 18 years old with a job with a real job.

And. You know, we've touched on it before, but you know, like Dylan said, keeping the trades. Cool. And that's kind of a tagline I started using, but the reality is if we don't get kids involved and, and keep building up that farm team as an industry, we're going to suffer big time.

Oh yeah, no, I, I agree. A hundred percent.

That's honestly why I believe construction tech itself and the evolution of construction tech is so crucial to our industry as a whole. Yeah.

It's both too. Like it's both and right. Like you with like tech, you gotta be like somewhat computer literate. Like just knowing how to run an iPad, you know, like you need some basic knowledge, but you also like going in and you can go into both sides of it.

And we'll, we'll get into this too, but you can go into like just the CAD side or you can be a guy in the field that can. Put the stuff up and know how to run the iPad. And now you're a much more valuable asset. You know, I'm seeing more and more high schools put these programs together. Like in Indianapolis.

When I was there, we designed a voc-tech lab space for. HVAC granted. So carrier is a big has there been main factory there in Indi? So they donated like Thompson issue, AC units for everybody to work on. Right. Which is in their, their sole interest. Right. They can have people come in that are trained on carrier units you know, and then put those out.

Right. And so it's an easy way, but there's a lot of other things. Like that, that are around, but the thing too, I want to hammer on. It's not just tech, which, you know, Andy, I know that your, your focus and what we're going to dive in here too. And I mean, I'm on the tech side, like, don't get me wrong.

It's important. But like, there needs to be also people that are like the guys that are super mechanically inclined. Like I went to high school with a few guys, best mechanics I've ever. Ever known, right? Like they could fix you name it, they could fix it. And then they went to a vocational school for a few years to learn how to do all the computer stuff that are in like the new diesels, right.

Like all the emission stuff. So you need people that understand the technology that go into this. Especially as much tech is in an engine nowadays, let alone everything else. You know, but they need people that can just. Build stuff, you know, let alone like the, the tech side of it. Any, any piece that I kind of went on a little tear there, but

no, no, I honestly, I agree a hundred percent with it.

You know, you're talking about guys that are either computer savvy or they're mechanically inclined and, in all honesty, it. I always want to talk to everybody who has an interest in it, because at this point, I mean, I've talked with graphic designers that, that a true BIM VDC job description, when you really look at it, it almost is kind of vague to a certain point where people think that we design cartoon characters, you know, and, and that's, it's just a lot of the same nomenclature, a lot of same terminology, but.

The I've always had the mentality of, I will always take somebody out of the field, over somebody who comes just out of school to draft my, and the reasoning for that is because you can teach anybody to draft for the most part, but if they don't know what they're drawing, their drawings are absolutely worthless.

And so with that being said, if my, so my ideal candidate for a BIM guy for example, would be an ideal, would be a 50 year veteran pipe fitter or sheet metal, tin knocker, who comes in. He's like, okay, I know this process, I've been on a hundred temp jobs before. I know what the guys in the field are looking for.

Now, let me come into the office and actually produce those drawings because he knows that. What we do on the computer is we are essentially building that in that exact same building. We're just doing it on the computer. So if a duct doesn't fit or a pipe, doesn't go where, you know, on the computer, we know it's not going to work out in the field.

And it's, we run by the 10, 50, 100 rule where it's $10 to fix a problem on the computer, $50 to fix it in the shop. If we find a problem, say with prefab, and it's a hundred dollars to fix it, if we're out on scissor lifts and ladders, trying to do it when it's 20 feet in the air. So yeah, with that, you know, I know I'm kinda going off on a little tangent there, but yeah, that's, it is very important to say the least, I know the, the, the courses and the, you know, classes and stuff that I've been a part of the like I went to Autodesk university for example, and tremble dementia, stuff like that.

And they're saying over the next five years, we're supposed to lose 40% of our workforce. However, so with that being said, they're also saying, all right, well, over the last a hundred years, our, our industry has grown like this, but somehow magically, they think that over the next five years, it's also going to go like this.

So where their reasoning is for that, I'm not exactly sure, but You know, and we're going to have a massive labor shortage. And yet our, our actual production needs are going to skyrocket. And that's really, I agree, you know, I can draw all the prettiest pictures in the world, but if there's nobody there to actually install it, it's all for nothing.

So I

like what you said about bringing guys in from the field. In a, in a previous life, I ran an estimating department for a larger contractor and that was. Those guys were my unicorns, right? When I was hiring for estimators, we would get lots of people come in and they know the, the schooling side of it.

They know the technology side of it, but if they've never swung a hammer so to speak, or they'd never seen it go up, it was very, very hard to teach them to do the kind of conceptual estimating that we did. So getting, you know, getting people well-rounded is, is. Fantastic in my book. And I think that's how we saved the industry.

Because as, as you get older in the field, you know, there's a natural attrition where shit starts shutting down on you. You know, it just doesn't feel as good getting up and, and hanging Piper, banging hammers all day. So to take those guys and instead of letting them kind of die on the vine, bring them back in and, and repurpose them.

I think that could be huge.

Yeah, no, absolutely. That's, you know, even as an estimator, for example, cause that was. I'm kinda in that same boat. I used to be an estimator and NPM you know, getting the guys who can look at a set of blueprints. I mean, yeah, you can go to school and you can learn to run AutoCAD.

You can rev it or whatever you're using. You can go to school and learn how to read blueprints, but until you actually do it, there's only so much that a school can teach you, you know, the, you go straight to Autodesk for training and they train you how to use our software, which is great. But it's developed from a process of how the.

The industry could or should function in their eyes, not necessarily how it does function. So if you get a guy that looks at a blueprint, for example, as an estimator and says, well, that's not going to work. And we know that we're going to have to add a million dollars to the budget in order to make this work.

You as a contractor may not win that particular bid, but at the same time, you're also not going to have to eat a million dollars worth of problems down the road, though. You know, it's kind of a give and take, but having that experience is huge in my mind.

Yeah. So the, the biggest thing that I've seen across the industry, and this is coming from the engineering side.

So, I mean, I had a advantage that I spent a lot of time in the field digging in panels before I ever went to the AC side of it. I did power systems for industrial plants. So I looked at a lot of, a lot of power systems, wrote a lot of arc flash reports. And, you know, like, like I lived and breathed all that stuff.

So for me coming into it, I had a much different understanding and being implants, working with electricians for years before I ever went to the like design side of it. And I knew what was safe, like electrically to put in versus what, like get people hurt. So like I had a very different upbringing, but when I stepped into the industry, I saw that like, people didn't go to site you know, and I.

I moved up quickly because I had all that experience, that power system stuff to where I, you know, I was leading projects within a year. I was like the main guy for it. And when I became a department head, like I, I made sure to take my young guys, like, Hey, you're just going to come with me. But shut up, stand behind me, you know, write the shit down and let's go.

And like I got, I got some flak for it for sending them for like on punches and stuff like that. Especially when, you know, we had to fly to job sites and I was like, when is this guy ever going to be able to punch a 300,000 square foot brand new high school? Like tell me when. And I needed to do it in two days.

I'm like these two old guys can't like run, you know, some young guy with them to like go and get, get stuff. Right. That's how

you want to punch your outlet. Cover on every outlet in every room. Just,

this is a 300 a thousand square foot brand new building. Like these two guys, I love them, but they're, you know, they're not going to be able to cover it, you know, without killing them.

So it's things like that where you know, Across the industry. And this is especially geared to the architecture and design side of the table is you have to put people in the field, but get them like, and you get them to the OAC meetings. You get them to all this stuff. So they know how to handle those meetings before they ever have to lead one.

Before they ever say something they regret and the firm regrets. But like, they need to be in those rooms, be in those meetings, be on the job site, you know, talk to them like the people that you need to talk to and have those conversations. And if it's, even if it's just like, Hey, what's up, what's going on?

Can you tell me about this? Like, you know, what are you guys doing? Like that is all well and good, but to send them with some senior people. And I know it's a, it's a cost, it's an expense. You're not getting stuff done in the office, but like it's, it's going to be the long-term benefit for everybody.

It's

an investment.

Th that's, that's exactly what I was getting at, you know, think about what it costs you to send them there for that hour is what 5,000 bucks, obviously, depending on their level, but what's the cost. If you don't send them to something like that. And like you just said, don't they say something in front of an owner later on that cost you a potential $10 million project, you know?

And construction is still humans, right? It's so human based. And what tends to happen from, from my side, what I saw in the office as an estimator is my estimators would never leave the office. You know, they'd, they'd bid stuff all day long, but they would never go out and see a site. They'd never see something come out of the ground and.

I got to assume it's similar with, on the design side, you know, I, I know architects and designers who will never leave their drafting table or their computer now, you know, there's gotta be that mix because it's still the human element. We're, we're never going to be putting up buildings with robots, no matter how cool, you know, Boston dynamics makes things.

They're not going to replace the human element of it. And, and to get the young designers, the young estimators, everybody out there and talking with each other. And there's nothing that most of our, my guys in the field, they would love to explain what they're doing to a younger guy. Who's actually interested, you know, it, it it's real powerful stuff.

Conversations have never gone bad. Like I've never had a single conversation with, I've worked with 65 year old electricians from the Hills of Kentucky, you know, He could drink beer at a table, but like, you know, asking, asking a question, like never, it was never a bad thing anywhere. I've been in weird manufacturing plants in the middle of nowhere to, you know, downtown cities, right?

Like those guys up and down the chain, like no one ever had a problem asking, like, if you were genuine in your ass, and it wasn't like a problem question, right? Just like, how are things going? You know, what can we help with? Well, it's, you know you know, why'd you go this way and like, not in a, you know, like we're going to get you for this one type language, but just in a like, Hey, you know this is a little different, but why why'd you make this decision?

There's nothing wrong with that. I was just curious, right? Like stuff like that, I think goes a very long way on the job site.

No, that, that honestly, so thankfully right now my day job, we have a very small department, but it's quickly growing. Just being the whole BIM VDC construction tech department.

My number one rule. If I ever get anybody green, they're not even getting a computer for the first two weeks. They're going out to the field to actually follow our guys around. Whether it's she, you know, you're going to the sheet metal for a day. You're going to hang duct. You're going to go out to the shop for a day.

You're going to learn how to bend sheet metal. You're going out to the weld shop to learn how to cut and put pipe together. You know, I don't know how many times I've dealt with. You know, relatively green draftsmen who they don't realize that a flange requires a, an impact gun in a wrench to actually put that bolt together.

So you can't bury that in a corner somewhere. Right. So yeah, no getting that field experience. I personally, I've never hung a pipe in my life, but I've been yelled at by enough of the failed guy, the field guys, to know what I can and cannot do on my drawings. So.

I love it. We we're building the community center right now in a nearby us here.

And there's a lot of masonry inside the building. You know, as firewall we had, I dunno, six different columns. These are pre-engineered columns right up against the masonry. And so the guys started going to, to stand them up and they can sit, you know, they can stand them on the, on the anchor bolts. But they're like, how in the hell are we supposed to crank these bolts?

The nuts down on the bolts on the air side, there's, you know, two inches between the column and the masonry. And we ended up cutting holes, know weld, cutting holes in, in the, in the columns themselves and having to put them back together just so they had room to stick an arm through to get a wrench on it.

And, and that's kinda what, I mean, it's just what you said with the, with the flanges, you know, there's little nuances that you won't pick up. On 2d or 3d or, or five D or anything, unless you can actually go in and see it in real life.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's where the, you know, actually getting that field experience.

And I mean, we, one of our internal processes is we laser scan every job as, as long as it's a renovation or an addition or something along that where we have something to laser scan. And even honestly, we're doing a new job right now where we're doing progressive scanning. So as the steel goes up, we go out and scan and bring that back into the model to make sure that it's accurate.

We're one of the only ones in the state with the laser scanner we have. So we can actually do that onsite and analyze what's accurate versus what's not before we ever leave site, but that kind of information, even if you go out and laser scan, right, and you bring that point cloud back into the computer, you, there is nothing you will ever do.

That will even remotely compare to being actually onsite and smelling the dirt, getting your group's money, just period. So can we can we shift a little bit though, and this laser scanning idea? Oh no, we just lost our I affectionately referred to him as my drone guy. He went and got some sweet jobs somewhere and he was posting pictures of their day or this thing.

It was called a Farrow F a R O scanner. And. He's doing that something he's in Houston or something now, but I'm just a dumb construction guy. So you got to fill me in a little bit on what, what this is and what it's doing for us.

No. So laser scanning is, you know, how a laser tape works, right? Yup. Shoots out mounts us back and measures the time.

Records it as distance. The laser scanners that I knew. So Pharaoh was actually one of the ones that I learned on. I've used all the major manufacturers basically, and Pharaoh, Leica and tremble are right up there. They they're all fairly equal. They have their pros and cons, whatever it all basically does the same thing, but.

Think of a laser tape that shoots out, however, it also records horizontal and I'm sorry, horizontal and vertical angle of that laser. And it does at 500,000 to 2 million times a second. So what it's doing is it records that point that is essentially an arbitrary point in space, but then it ELLs it so many times.

And so for every scan location that you have it arched to develop a pattern that you can see. So from there, we'll set up a cause I think I've actually seen some of the projects that you've done, that, that when you set a for example, right? So in that gym, you would split up a, say four times, right. To get rid of what we consider shadows, you know, saying both sides of a beam with all lineups, like I can't eat or anything, but knowing that, okay.

Yeah. Matt wants to see these beans and he needs to make sure that they're accurate. I know where I need to set up inside that gym or capture a good image of from there, we'll bring it into the computer, pointed out. The only thing we really need to do. And then you can actually take that laser scan, drop it into Navis works or rabbit or AutoCAD or recap.

If you want to just look at me, look just at the scan itself. Recap is a free viewer. There's real works or Trimble. I believe Leica has a icon. I think there's a free year for that. Arrow has another one for seeing or regardless, you can look at this on your computer and then literally you guys can see everything that this in full color.

It's an exponential degradation of measurement value. So the further out you go, the less accurate you are. But I like to say at about 300 feet Which I think the scanner I have right now is 80 meter range. And we typically say plus, or minus about a quarter of an inch. So there's other ones that are out there.

Tremble actually has one. Like it has another one where it's set up more for civil work, but those things are reaching out over a kilometer and reflecting back tremble actually had one when they first released, it said. It's only rated for 600 meters alum lane. So half over half a kilometer. But they said that they were getting returns back off of birds, a kilometer and a half away.

So, you know, it's, it's amazing what this stuff can do. And so by doing that, what we're able to do is let's say. Let's say you're working in an operating room scenario, for example, right? Every time you pop a ceiling tile, you have to recertify the room, you have to gown up, you have to do it off hours. You have, you know, there's all the different nuances that go along with working in a specialty scenario like that.

Right? So by going into the laser scanner, what I can do is I can go in after hours by myself, gather all this information. Bring it back to the computer. And then we can reference that information. Anytime I can have a team of literally thousands of people looking at the exact same point cloud at the exact same time, rather than trying to put 2000 heads into the same ceiling tile you know, develop presentations, load into a model to make sure that everything's going to actually work around the light fixtures and the.

You know, you've got a big light boom. So you have all the structural old strut and everything that's up above the ceiling, making sure that your ducks are going to work around. You know, so it's, it's good. Is that a reality capture? The big thing to remember about it though, is that it's a snapshot, right?

So you're going out you're you have all your stuff you'll in place. You're going to go out and go scan that steel and then bring it back in that scan is not going to contain any of the new duct work or electrical conduits until you out and rescan it. So, you know, there, there are limitations to it.

It's not the end all be all, but, Oh man, does it save so much headache?

So there's a few things to note with this, with a point clouds, there's a couple different pieces to note. So there's everything that any talks about with the laser scan, they call them point clouds. The other thing in some of these newer scanners is you can get photogrammetry.

Which is a little more nuanced. So you can basically, you get a full and get the HD version like SD doesn't cut it. We like one of the architects I worked with on a or remodel, we did exactly what Andy was talking about, where we they did a standard definition photo for it. And like, it's great where, you know, one guy went in from 10 at night, till six in the morning.

Right. Or whatever they could for the ORs to scan them and, you know, get all hallways and everything. But the thing that missed and like those Stan, like SD stuff is like, you're looking at one cable or one port and you can't make it out. Right. Is that what type of gases are in here on the like overhead?

So you can basically get a full three. It's like a, not matter port, but it's. It's better than Matterport is. So have you seen the like Matterport home, like 3d home pieces it's that is what we're talking about with photogrammetry, right. 3d. But it also with the laser it's super accurate.

So you can do dimensions and takeoffs where like, I don't think you can do that within Matterport.

But it's not nearly as accurate a photograph actually. Photogrammetry is actually what Google uses to get the terrain in and all the buildings in Google maps. So it's basically, you're taking photos from different angles and the computer analyzes it to say, okay, yeah, with this shadow and this shading and this and this and this, I'm going to put a building here.

You know, so it's usually a very rough mesh, but yes, you're, you're exactly right. And with the laser on top of it, like if you do that in some of these that I've worked with are they're super accurate. So there's. Two things like one is using these for renovations. It's a super slick way to do it.

Cause you always missed the corner of the thing that you needed a picture of. Right? You, you always miss that. If you're doing a video where these, you know, you're, you're more than likely not going to miss anything. And if it, if it is, that's why you take multiple locations within the same room to try to Avoid that in particular.

And then you have complete and total access to a three-dimensional deal. Right? So up, down left, right. Ceilings, everything within a space. So for renovations, it's super slick. Then like I can pull it up on my computer or if I'm working, I'm in California, I'm working on a project, Michigan. Like I can do it.

Right. And it's like, I went and walked the job site. So that's the other thing is you get with. Especially with like COVID regulations and people on site in hospitals. And this was like, I did that, Oh, our job years ago before COVID was even a word to like go and do these types of renovations. So it's, it's super beneficial.

Like, I don't know how many times, like job site visits it saved. Right. And then to gown to get in a clean suit, to get approval from the hospital. You know, and make sure that they have surgery, like all that stuff. So for, for spaces like that, it's super beneficial and even just saving time and it's not overly costly.

I mean, for Andy, you guys probably you have your own scanner, so it's, you know, pretty, pretty cost effective. I mean, obviously the equipment costs and a laser scanner now costs anywhere from 16,000 for a lower end Jeep one all the way through. I mean, I've dealt with scanners that are a quarter of a million dollars, right.

They get attached to helicopters. So it's, there's a pretty big gamut in there, but for the most part, you can get into it. A nice laser scanner now for under a hundred K. But it's, it's obviously the initial investment. And then after that, I can literally hand this thing to an apprentice and he can go out and go run this.

So then you're just talking labor costs. But no. The other thing that you were kind of touching on too, Dylan is the safety aspect, right? I've gone out, I've scanned you know, essentially warehouses or auditoriums where we need to run new duct, you know, 40 feet in the air. I don't want to be up in a scissor lift.

Right. I, I personally I hate Heights. It's not the fall. It's not the hides. It's a sudden stop after the fall that I'm really not a fan of. The being able to go out and again, if I can see it, I can scan it. So it's a direct shot. As long as I can see where that wall is or where that opening is from the ground.

There's no scissor lifts. There's no hard hats. There's no safety glasses there. You know, I'm rarely even wearing a safety vest in a lot of these because it's, it's just a regular building. I'm usually in those spaces long before the project sometimes is even awarded before there's even a bid out because we're just doing initial recon for the AEC firms.

You know, so again, you're also doing it with one guy rather than having to have two guys out there, pulling the tape on two different ladders and, you know, hoping that that's good. You get a guy up on a 20 foot extension ladder trying to measure 24 feet in the air. And he doesn't like Heights. Yeah.

That's plus or minus six inches, you know? Yeah. We'll make it fit. You know, my scanner has no feelings. It doesn't care if it hurts your feelings, it, if it'll fit my scanner, I'll tell you so lots, lots of good benefits to it.

Yeah. I mean, there's, there's callous uses and the new one that I'm seeing, because so.

In a previous life, I've dealt with a lot of point clouds and this is like eight, 10 years ago. And they were a pain in the ass. They sucked. They would take you half a day, a day to like clean up a point cloud to be able to use it again. You're like computers just didn't have enough hardware to process, you know, the millions of points that are within these things.

Right? Cause every, every laser.is a point and it registers that. And then to go through millions of those is tough. But in. More recent times where were able to like clean these up. And a lot of people put a lot of effort into point cloud and cleaning up these models is for progress reports actually.

So as a, let's say as a mechanical sub, right? Like you go out, you scan it, everybody knows it's there. You need there. I mean, you're going to do a point cloud versus photogrammetry, cause that gives you an actual like duct, but to say, you know, Hey, this is done. Right check. And then you can go against, so the new way to do this, as you go against your bill of materials and your invoicing.

So then you can say, all right, 25% of my duct is complete, hung done. And I have now I also have proof, right? Here's our laser scan date. And you can invoice off of that type of stuff. So it's not only as bill. But then it comes into pricing and finance for the firm as well. It's not many are doing that, but that's one of the other applications that you can have for it.

Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's a very good point. There's actually stuff out there now that. May or may not have been around when, when you started dealing with it, Dylan, I mean, even a point cloud today I just got done doing the one that was over 4 billion points and it was in excess of 60 gigs. So Dropbox won't even allow me to upload the whole thing at once, even zipped.

Very few computers have even have the software to open it, let alone the hardware on it. I got an $8,000 desktop that I built myself that was struggling to handle this thing. So it's, it's definitely not for the weak of heart. You know, and, and then the experiences and pull another aspect, you know, knowing how to fly through annoying, making sure that you're grabbing the right points to pull dimensions and all that.

Yeah, the, some of the stuff that we can do now with them actually is. We're actually working on this right now where 3d or three 60 cameras, you can essentially do the same thing with much smaller file sizes. There's a number of companies out there where, you know, weekly, you just send an apprentice out.

I want, you know, every 20 feet, I want you to take this monopod, click a photo and go down another 20 feet, click another photo, just walk the whole site and do it. GCs are doing that now. For that exact reasons that they have their own recordable. You know, basically information for billing and, and vetting, everything like that.

The other aspect from the chemical contractor side is duct and pipe prefabrication. We can actually say yes, this, this pipe here has already been schooled. And we know that it's in the shop. I was just sent 60 schools out to the shop. 23 of them are done. Another 17 have already been put out on site.

And the lab, the other 13 that are here have already been hung by this person on this date. And, you know, we can barcode everything if we want to. So there's, there's a lot of tech that's out there now that I always considered at CYA. For the contractors, you know, making sure that yeah, if, if I submit a million dollar invoice and we're, the GC is expecting 20%, but we're already billing at 70, you better have a damn good reason why you're sending in that kind of money, you know, or asking better.

So, but yeah, that, that's the other aspect too, is that. With the whole them and prefabrication process, right? There's a lot of stuff going on off site that you don't even see. We just, we're working on a hundred thousand square foot casino addition right now where we actually, we were submitting bids to the, or not bids, but the, the invoices, the GC, they actually stopped at our shop because they didn't believe that we had this much pipe sitting here.

We had three flatbed semi-trailers full of pipe, ready to install. That they did not allow us to install on site because they didn't have the crane pad set yet, but we're still submitting the invoices. Like we're ready. We're not charging you for the labor yet. Of course. But it's here. It's ready to go.

Just like we would have it onsite. It's just not in their way basically. So yeah, there, there's definitely a lot of benefits to it.

One of the things that we talked about in the round table that I hosted this week was not letting tech in your way. You know, we can talk about all this stuff and really, you know, I love it.

Like, don't get me wrong. I, I totally dig it, but there's, there's a point in a lot of this where Depend on who you are, get infatuated with like the new toy. Right. But this goes, I think to the, the main point that we've been talking about is you have to have experience right. Experience in the field, how this can actually help what this can actually do.

Does it actually do the work or help us like, you know, CYA and construction. Okay. Big deal invoicing. Okay. If it can help us do that, you know, that's a big deal. And then the rest of this can be like in saving time, back and forth. And it's always something that like you consider, cause you have to make these decisions at the beginning of job.

Right. Whether you go and scan it and you're like, ah, I can't be that many, you know, Sidewalks, right times, however many people, times, however many other things you've got. So it's

always you forget to grab that one little piece that it's like, Oh yeah, that's there.

Yeah. So there's, there's a lot of this, but it's also to not forget on what is this tech, this thing you're going to integrate with actually doing, because at the end of the day, and one of the big things that was brought up Was, you know, we in construction, we build communities, right?

It's we talk about the buildings we talk about you know, all the cool things that we do in construction. We talk about, you know, putting up walls and all this stuff, the tech behind it. But at the end of the day, and I love this I'm stealing it is. You know, we build communities. That's, that's it.

Right. Everything that you look out at, everything that you see, it was built by somebody, right. It was built by a person. And then used by somebody, hopefully right. Yeah. I mean like Matt, you're building a community center, right? Like. We build communities. And it's not to get that lost in the like tech talk or to, you know, the cool new thing.

You know, cause like, I mean, just like Andy, you were saying like these point clouds, right? Like it's hard to even get the hardware to handle them. You know, and then you got to have like a PhD in cloud computing to figure out how to run these things. So don't. Don't get too infatuated with a lot of this stuff.

Like figure out how you're going to realistically use it. You know, don't burn weeks on end, unless you have somebody dedicated for that to like, get these things done, right. It needs to be something that can easily integrate, you know, a watch and learn. I'll teach you all you need. Or, you know, half day training to get through some of this stuff.

Yeah. And Dylan, you had a guest on Tuesday, and I cannot remember the lady's name, but she was talking about efficiency. Right. And you know, all of this tech is, is gained, is geared to making us more efficient, but, but her quote, and I will never forget it. I might get a tattooed on my arm, but you know, you can, you can also efficiently suck is what she said and that it was wonderful to hear because I think a lot of this.

You know, it it's really cool stuff. Don't get me wrong. And when I, from, from my side of the, of the fence, if we can use it to truly improve job sites, to improve quality efficiency, all that sort of stuff, I'm all for it. But I think it could be really easy to go and buy $80,000 robotic dog. And does it, does it really help or is it just more clutter in, in the, in the matrix, you know,

Yeah.

And it was to hear Allie she's the executive director at Nika, and she also was instrumental in developing the Milwaukee one key system. So yeah, to hear I was recommended her to have her on the panel and I was blown away. She was awesome. She was awesome for sure. I actually, so I ended up watching that panel, unfortunately, not live because there was a couple of questions.

I'd love to ask everybody in there. But I actually, I sat in on one of her. I believe it was Autodesk university a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, this year went virtual because of COVID and all that. But the prior year I went in and sat in on one of her speeches and yeah, I have nothing but respect for her that she is an amazing person, but no, no.

And I, I definitely appreciate you bringing up the fact that tech is not for everything. There are definitely jobs. I actually just had a talk with one of my PM's and estimator today. Like. Don't use me. Trust me. I'm only at the company. The, the only reason that my job exists is to increase efficiency.

If I ever actually cost the company money in the long-term, I'm not doing my job. And so if you have a $20,000 little addition, renovation, or somebody just wants you to put up ceiling tile or reroute a little bit of duct in a couple of offices, Don't even come up to my office. Don't talk to me because it's, it's one of those things where it's going to cost me three days worth of time that I'm charging to your job, just to get your hand drawing onto the computer.

By the time we set up the project and get the backgrounds from the architect and engineer and all this and that, it's not worth it. You know, I know there's a big push to go paperless and all these job sites, digital for everything and all these buzzwords, it's like. Now, when was the last time that you've been able to go to a job site and you don't have a notepad with you?

You

know? Yeah. I mean, we, we carry eye pads, but on top of my iPad is a yellow notepad. You know, paperless, paperless is never going to happen in this industry.

There's two things on it too, as everyone who's ever gotten sued will attest to is there's a lot of shit that you need to write down that does not get documented.

Yes. There's a lot of those notepads that go right into the dumpster. They do not go to the scanner.

Yeah, I personally, I will never push tech just to push tech. It's one of those things where again, we are there to make a job site safer. First and foremost. We want everybody to go home at the end of the day.

Like laser scanning. Again, I'm not up on a ladder. I'm not on the scissor lift. I want to be more efficient. And that means doing the same amount of work and either a less time or be more work or better quality work in the same amount of time and C would be potentially faster, meaning yes, I may still have the same number of hours on a job, say with prefab, for example, but instead of having, you know, 20 welders out on a site, putting pipe together in the air, They're able to prefab all this back at site.

So instead of it taking six weeks out on site, we're actually only there for three because we had the other three back of the shop and a conditioned space where everything is at waist level. We have all the electricity we need, you know, that kind of stuff. So at the end of the day, I personally believe that the whole tech, the construction tech industry, you know, you have all these.

You know, different software. I know Dylan, Matt, I'm sure you've seen it. I know you guys have talked about it in the past where, you know, you got plan grid and pro core and you know, all these different apps that are out there. You know, I went to a, an industry where the guy, I don't even remember, it was several thousand dollars a year for this app.

Add on to, I think like PlanGrid or Procore where he's like, okay. Yeah. So now it's voice activated. I'm like, that's cool. But why, why don't you just teach your guys how to use the software the way it is like, to me, that would be a much better approach because you're actually instilling that knowledge into your guys rather than giving them a shortcut or a band-aid because they don't want to type like, to me that that just doesn't make sense.

And I think there's a lot of these buzzwords and people trying to solve problems that aren't truly there. So first we'll take that. I'm sure I'll get a lot of hate mail for, but right though, there's a

lot of fluff. There's a lot of armchair experts, but, but when the tech is great, like you mentioned the prefab, you know, those six weeks that, that your guys are in your shop building up duct are six weeks that my electricians are onsite hanging lights.

And when, when you get there, they're already out of your way. And as a GC, if I can, if I can stagger. Labor forces and, and workforces in my jobs like that. I can cut my schedules, right. Because I'm not, I'm not having everyone in the same room, tripping over each other at once. It makes it, that is true efficiency in my mind.

And it, my bottom line.

No, I absolutely. I, I remember there was a video I watch, and I really wish I could find the link to it. But I think it was someplace in China or Japan. Some someplace overseas, they put up something like a 59 story building and like 28 days because of prefabrication and modular construction.

I wouldn't want to sleep in it, but no,

no, but actually watching the crane go up. It looked like it was actually like massive Lego blocks. It was like eight foot by eight foot massive steel cubes that they were just stacking. And I'm like, ah, I feel like some sort of code violation is in there somewhere, but no, they call it a C.

Right. It

doesn't have code, but I mean, structurally there, things were, I'm sure like pretty well intact, right? Like you prefab all the four planks and. Like it's all structural steel. You do it in a grid. It was a, you know, long rectangle of a building. That's pretty easy to make structurally like sound.

So things like that I think are good. It's the rest of it, right. It's structure and architecture fairly like. In a building like that, where it's a literal rectangle, it goes straight up. Doesn't bend no curves, no nothing, probably interior as well. Like that's fairly straightforward to do. Now, I mean, peace side of it is going to be a different, different feel.

And even with like modular hotels that have been going up, so what they do for those is they still like onsite the core. So the, like you have to on-site all the stairwells elevator shafts. Like all those are still like onsite built, sorry, prefabbed. And then. They'll build the common like core for it, basically the route, the hallways for it, and the common core.

And then for the room pods, they'll crane those in and those stack on each other. And then they basically have a connector if you will, at the hallway to tie in you know, power and water into the room. But those that's really, I think for, for when we talk. Modular and that's, and this is I think, going back to some of the original stuff, but when we talk modular is like, that is a true way to do it.

You're going to have a combination of onsite, right? Dirt work is never going to go away. You know, utilities are never going to go away. Your stair cores are gonna to build those off sites, going to be a D I don't think it can be done. Not really. It's not worth it. No. And then you drop in the room pods for the rest of it.

You could do the same with classrooms. Like basically anything that had a common room or really you could drop rooms. But the core utilities, I think are those hallways are always going to need to be onsite bill, and then you can snap the connectors in for the rest of it.

Well, and I think even, even staying the rooms, for example, right.

I was on a really big hospital project, 300,000 square foot new tower that they're putting in. The initial concept was to do modular construction. So all the rooms, cause it's like a 300 bed hospital.

Yeah. And those are all the

same. Yeah. It would've been really awesome to do it. But the problem is, is that the site that they chose the company I was working for at the time, they actually went out and bought a brand new building.

Air was. Brand new to us in order to host all this modular construction, well, the GC didn't like it because believe it or not, 45 miles is quite a way to truck 300 rooms. Right? So then you have the logistics aspect of it. So then the GC also owned a facility about a mile away from the hospital. And that wouldn't work either because they found out that the road that the, that these would have to travel down, wasn't rated for that much weight.

Like it's just, there's other aspects to it than just. Saying that, you know, yeah. We're just going to do this offsite, not a big deal. You know, so I, the number one thing, and I've had this argument with 40 year union guys, 40 year open shop guys, it doesn't really matter. You've got all these guys who, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

And that's really the way that our industry has been for the past. I don't know, 3000 years, but it's one of those things where the, one of the biggest arguments I have. From guys you know, in the field saying, Oh, you know, you're coming in, you're taking our jobs. And you know, we really want to do this out here and this and that.

I'm like, number one, I don't want to take your job. I want you guys to look at us as a tool in your toolbox. You guys are going to call us tools anyway, but I want you to, to understand that we're here to help you guys first and foremost, that can offer, especially if we start talking about prefab, right?

Would you guys really, especially right now in the middle of January, end of January in Michigan, you guys really want to be up on a roof throwing natural gas pipe up on that roof, or would you rather be doing it back in the shop where it's heated, you have a radio you can cuss and swear and do whatever you want inside the shop or, or, you know, you're, you're out on site, you know?

Yeah. There's still going to be site work, but you can. We have new technology that's out there that can help you do these jobs. I, they, I was actually listening to the other one that we did Dylan with Dan about robotics, you know, you're no longer worried about, okay, can I lift this six foot? I have to cut all my pipe down into six feet because this is what I can actually manhandle up there.

Why can't we do it in 50 foot chunks and just create it into place. So, you know, there there's benefits give and take on all sides of it, but. You know, I think we're, we're moving in the right direction. And one of the biggest things is trying to get that it's more of a mentality. I think that the hardware and the software and the process is there.

It's just trying to get that mentality for, especially a lot of the GCs that I work with. I'm not calling anybody out. I think honestly, it's an industry wide problem where you hear BIM for example, and you think faster, quicker, cleaner, and we have a pretty picture. That's fine, but you have to give us time to do that.

You know, we can't, you can't be having us design pipe after it's already been in the air and then tell us to go change it like that, that doesn't work. There needs to be an actual process change here. So, you know, again, I think we're going down that right path as an industry. We're not there yet. So

yeah, one of the, to come back to one of the early things that we talked about and.

I see this all the time and I get kind of peeved about it, but is, you know, that like there's no productivity increase in construction, right? Over the last, whatever. It's 2% what everyone forgets, because this is done by people that don't work in construction is the amount of increase in like content and stuff that goes into a building.

Right. Like, you didn't have internet 20 years ago. Like, you know, you didn't have security cameras, like all this stuff, you know, all your data security card, access card readers, like, you know, now the fire alarm system has 10 more things in it. You've got all this other all these other systems basically that you end up putting in a building.

You know, shit, we didn't have heat until like the seventies, right? Like HBC didn't exist.

The energy codes alone, you know, we have to do now just to meet energy code is, is it's borderline obnoxious, but I mean, it, it adds a huge percentage to any job,

huge percentage. And this is the thing that I get like super peeved about is, you know, they, they say, and I'm, I'm sure to some extent, right.

That like productivity is not totally increased, but there's also the point of like, do you know how complicated these things are? Right. And the, you know, you're not building with two by fours anymore, right? Like it's, you're in like metal studs and like the not only the. Technology and putting it together, but the building materials itself has changed, you know, in a lot, for the better, right?

Like windows, like little look at a window, right. Look at a glass like how complicated, you know, those are. Today, I think there's a lot of things that get left out of that like incremental productivity increase because of the basic they see building, building square foot. Right. That's the only thing that these journalists can measure.

Whereas if you look at like, what is in a building, that's a very different story. And I think, you know, from everybody looking from the outside in this is a very, like, it's a different conversation, right?

Yep.

Absolutely.

Andy, what I we're getting up on, on time here. If anybody's got a run, let me know.

But what, where do you see the industry heading? You know, this is one thing that I, I like to ask our guests. We asked on our panel earlier this week in. You know, we, we talk about you know, a lot of problems and there's a lot of things that, that Matt and I will talk about on here in episodes to come on solutions for a lot of these.

And none of them are cut and dry. Like, you know, there's very few that are cut and dry. There's so many nuances to it and to do it in a podcast is you know, can't quite do a lot of these things full justice, but where do you see the industry heading?

Oh, that is a very tricky question. There there's many, many ways words that come to mind.

You know, in the short-term I think long-term, you've got, there has to be some sort of change what that change is going to be. Exactly. I'm hoping and praying that it's for the better you know, like we've already touched on there's a massive labor shortage. We flat out, we're turning down jobs right now as an industry because we flat out don't have the manpower to handle it.

And some of the regulations that we have to deal with today that we didn't a year ago are not helping that as the, as the industry, but you know, flat out, we just, we need to make changes. We have the labor shortage and we're, I still see projects on the horizon that have been pushed off because of that labor shortage that need to get done sooner or later.

You know, and I know architects and engineers keep growing, which means there's more buildings being designed and, and renovated and fixed, or, you know, whatever they're Dylan, your side has a reason to exist. So that means that we're going to have work coming.

And there's, there's a shortage on that side too.

I mean, construction, even in the engineering space, what would you rather work on a phone or a building, right? Like. And I like electrical engineering isn't even taught HVAC is barely taught in like engineering schools. So it's a problem on the design side. And then most architects don't know how to put a building together when they graduate.

So. You know, like then they spend down that rabbit hole.

I'll do it. I mean, like until they pass their ERs, you know, that they're not an architect until they pass their, their areas, which are eight tests, which is like insane for how many tests it takes to get licensed as an architect in this country. But like, I mean, so realistically coming out of school, They're not even close to being able to be licensed.

So it's, you know, you, you graduate and then you're still working for. Six seven years to get licensed. And that's, if you're on an accelerated track to get in all your hours and you do a good job to get on the right projects and all that type of stuff, like getting licenses, architect is not a joke, right?

Like a licensed architect had to go through a lot of stuff to, to do that on the engineering side, it's a little easier. I'm not going to say it's any easier, but it's well, it's easier than the architecture, like they're eight tests or whatever stupid thing that they got to go through. So like, I have all the respect for anybody that's gotten licensed and done that path, but they coming out of school, you know, they don't know anything.

No that, I mean, honestly, like you just touched on there, you have architects and engineers who have to go through all the schooling. And I always considered it like their apprenticeship because they, they have to study on a licensed professional. It's obviously a lot harder than what, what I do as far as the licensing aspect.

I don't have an, a college education and I'm making, you know, pretty damn good money for what I'm doing. I'm not gonna lie. I mean, that's. That's one of the things is that because of the amount of efficiency that we bring to a company, we can bring that level of value to a company. But yeah, there's, again, I think there's something that needs to happen.

I think one of the biggest things that I really hope happens. Is that we flush out a lot of these buzzwords you know, I've done, I've done jobs in the past where you know, let's be honest. It, it happens. Numbers get shared after the bids and all this and that. I'm like, How were these guys even remotely thinking that that's an acceptable number, you know, they're coming in four or five times higher than the numbers that I sent out.

And I thought I was kind of high for like the amount of work that is being generated. And honestly, I think it's because they feel that they can, you know, because if you really think about it though, the amount of overhead and you know, the hardware and the training. Yeah. There's a value there in the experience and having that stuff.

You know, Matt, you guys don't have a laser scanner and you guys probably don't have an RTS layout station. You guys probably don't have the computers, but let's be honest. You can probably start up an apartment now for about a quarter million dollars and hit the ground running. And, you know, yeah. It's still a big chunk of money, but it's, it's reasonable for the level of tech that you're getting.

You know, but I think there needs to be almost a purge of some of the fluff in the industry. I think there needs to be a better understanding of what the process truly entails. How to use all this tech that we have, you know, you look at Revit for example, like our template that we use in my day job is we're continuously building it, but it's very in depth.

You know, we can take a look at our bill of materials, look at the model. It automatically generates a bill of materials. And I can tell you how much glycol that we need to add to the system based on a 30% propylene glycol mixture. Not a lot of people can do that in a matter of seconds. You know, but having that there, even that you're barely touching the surface of what rabbit can truly do.

Now there are shortcomings with rabbit. I won't even get into that, but you know, the same thing with Navis works and the coordination aspect and the point clouds and what we can actually do with the 40 and five D levels of information. We're nowhere near what this stuff can do. And it seems like every day more and more new toys come out and I'm like, guys, can we just figure out how to drive the car that we currently have before we throw another 9,000 horsepower into it?

Like. Let's be realistic here. I'd much rather have a software developer, or a reseller figure out a quality training program that actually applies to the way that the construction industry actually operates before they throw in more bells and whistles into their software, that we're never going to touch 90% of the buttons that are in Revit.

You know, so that's, that's personally what I think the industry needs to go now, whether it's going to, or not with the whole. SAS conversation and, and this and that and stockholders and that's, we're working on it.

Yeah.  I would love it if you guys that's my side, I mean, Autodesk, isn't gonna do it. But that's, that's that's me.

I mean, that's Kowabunga Studios. That's what we're. We're doing is all that, that side of it. Because again, like I go to these society for construction solutions meetings. I, when we did have them, I went to San Francisco and you get a lot of so that's where it started. Curtis with brick and mortar is the guy that started brick and mortar ventures.

So they're a venture capital firm that I'm blanking on his name, but the one of the Bechtel, Darren Bechtel. And so the head of, so Bechtel family funds a lot of it, Autodesk is involved in it. Good group of guys, but the thing that annoys me in a lot of these meetings is you get a venture in Silicon Valley mindsets to all of this stuff where it's exactly the things that we're talking about, where it's people that have never.

Built the things are done, the things that they need to do. So they're working on the flashy things where I, I grew up for all intents and purposes in the Midwest, right? Like Louisville, indie, like I grew up in the Midwest and the Midwest as you guys well know is you know, like figure out ways to do the work better.

Right. You don't need to flash; you just need to get it done. And, you know, that's. Like the way that the mindset that I'm taking for like our software products and the way that I would like to see the industry go is in tools to do the work. You know, like you don't need another, like virtual reality thing.

You don't need another, like, you know, a scheduling tool of something that no one's ever scheduled or construction project. Right? Like, it'd be one thing if like Matt, your estimated hours put a schedule together. Or, you know, somebody that's got 20 years of experience to like build a scheduling tool work with people to build a scheduling tool.

But that's been my beef, you know, with a lot of this stuff, any I'm completely like things do need to change, but from a. Developer inside of it. Like, I mean, things like what, like and all and FARO and all those guys have come out with, like, it's incredible. And that's like actual productivity. Like a total station is total.

It's a productivity, you know, piece of equipment to save time, like your as builts or, you know, to the hundredth of an inch accurate. Like you're not going to beat that. Right. A tape measure ain't even gonna come close. Right. It's a 16th and that's a guy with two good eyes. So. You're just not going to beat stuff like that.

Right. It's so there are definitely companies out there that are doing good work. But this is a total like soapbox thing for me is most software companies. And I mean, there's not many in construction, let's be real, but the ones that are in there are not developing tools to do the actual work. It's like, you know, adding a bunch of crap to your families or this or that, or, you know, like in Revit it's just a bunch of stuff that, that doesn't matter.

And yeah, there's a lot of things that you can do within rev. It's just like Excel, right? Like out of the box, it can do. A ton and ton of stuff that nobody really knows, but like, let's work on adding and subtracting here first before we, you know, do accounting formulas. So total, total agreement, like it does need to change in the process and all harp on contracts for a long time too.

That's I think a big thing that Matt and I have, you know, chimed about is contracts and that, that structure too. So you know, you're, you're preaching the choir here where we're in agreement on, on a lot of this stuff.

Yeah, definitely. I, you know, it's an industry, that's, that's so old, it's an industry.

That's, you know, we don't need a whole lot of help. Right. I mean, we could, we could theoretically survive doing it the same way we've done it for the last 3000 years. So the stuff that we've talked about today and the stuff you're doing, Andy, that, that actually quickly help. No, that's beneficial to us.

You know, it's, it's the flashy object syndrome that we don't, we don't need it. I don't need the dog that walks around and takes pictures. I keep bringing it up because I want one, believe me,

I'm saving up $80,000 to be able to have that dog go feed my dog in my backyard. That would be great.

Awesome. Oh, 50.

I might go ahead and do it, but, but I don't need it. I don't need it to increase efficiency. I don't need to, to motivate my guys, you know, it's, it's the artful blend of the human and the tech that, that I think a lot of those companies are missing that, you know, us here seem to really understand that and, you know, spreading this word is, is what's going to help you.

No. I absolutely agree with you guys. Of course. And I would very much welcome continuing this conversation because there's I, where would you guys like the list of problems I see in the industry,

your follow-up episode on that, but yeah, the thing too, like the, the training aspects, the things that we've hit on it's the construction industry is really getting hit.

Like. On both sides. You've got a, too many projects, right? Like people want to build stuff. We've had a, a glut of, with the Oh eight crash. So in those four years, really, till 12, nobody built what they should have. Right. What is with normal build cycle. So you had four years in the, like, Build up of demand.

So then we've been trying to catch up through all that building, you know, from residential to convention centers, to remodels, to whatever. And then, you know, 2020 was you know, pawn for construction. So there's another year of, of pent up demand. And then all the companies that couldn't withstand it. So then you had people leave the construction industry.

So you're getting hit with a lot of buildings. Need to go up one, two, you have. People believing the industry. Right. And this is on all sides, right? From stress, from all the stuff that we talk about, probably every podcast. And I'll continue to hammer on that. So you have people leaving the industry for like health reasons or like they just went out of business, whatever.

Yeah. Then you have. Like the company's lack of investment in training and everything else because this is the way we've always done it. What do you need? Follow that guy? He'll teach you everything you need to know. So it's really like a three, four or five fold problem in. Yeah. We'd love to learn all this stuff.

I don't have the time to do it. I can barely get the projects I have now out the door. When am I going to spend a guy for half a day, you know, to go and train on this thing? Yeah. It'll save us time later, but I don't have the time now to Kate.

I mean, that's exactly what we're doing right now. I'll be on my day job department.

We've got myself and one other guy and the other guy, I was able to snag. I've worked with him for almost a decade now. Great guy, very knowledgeable, but there's a lot of stuff that we have to do on the backend that can't really be charged to a job. And whether it be education or setting up templates or just training and figuring out, yeah, we've got quarter million dollars with the toys.

Now what, you know, we need to learn how to use this stuff. So what we've actually implemented is once a week, we sit down for two hours. It doesn't sound like a lot, but in that two hours of shut your phone off, you're not answering emails. Nobody's going into the office. Like, this is what we're focusing on.

I, we we've done it once so far and we've instantly seen a massive benefit from it. So yeah. I get speaking to your point, Dylan, I highly recommend it. You know? I mean, it's the same thing with, you know, bringing somebody in green. Who's never done this kind of stuff. You're not touching anything for two weeks until you go out and actually see what's going on in the field.

Right. It's overhead it's non-chargeable time. But think about the investment, you know, if I can't remember who it was that had made the quote of You know, what happens if we train these people and they leave, well, what happens if we don't train them and they stay, you know, it's, there's obviously different ways of looking at it.

And by basically forcing yourself to learn this stuff and to make the time to do it yeah. Your own or, you know, your, your GC or whoever you're working for. And they get pissed because you didn't answer his phone call in an hour, but, okay, well, sorry. I was in another meeting. Yeah, something simple as that.

So not that we ever lie to GC is math, but yeah.

You know, construction's always been feast or famine and it always will be, you know, that's just the cyclical nature of the industry and of the economy. So to take time now is to pre plan and prepare for those downturns is, is tough as hell to do, but it's super important because cause you won't survive the next, the next flip.

If you don't know, you'll be the guy who is the next story that, Oh, you know, it was sad. They, they used to be such a great builder, but now they're gone. Right.

Well, I look at that as, okay. Yeah. It's, it's hard right now. I'm putting in 70 plus hour weeks on this one project, but. And I'm taking two hours’ worth of quote-unquote overhead to, to learn this stuff.

When we do have that famine period, do I either want to be trying to learn something during that time or would I rather be trying to find stuff for my field guys? And my PMs actually be estimating saying, Oh yeah, we can do that. We as a company may or may not be doing anything, but I, as my department, I can certainly bring in money because we can outsource to the companies who are doing that kind of stuff.

You know, it's. Your pivot station,

you can pivot and you can keep eating.

Absolutely.

And then to double down in those troughs, right. That's the other thing I've never seen companies do that. I was always okay. You guys have extra time go and fix. Our template, go fix whatever research like in well as engineers too is like, okay, go write an article, right?

Like go put a piece out, go. I don't care necessarily what it is. Like, I, we need something I need to, you can bill it the overhead. I don't care, but like be productive.

Absolutely.

Matt final words.

Andy. I appreciate you coming on, man. This was a lot of fun. Dylan, I think we need to, we need to book a second show with him. Sometime in the future,

I can talk about this stuff all day long and, and, you know, especially with a guy close to home and you know, that's always, always cool too.

Hey, when we're finally able to go to a bar again, let me know. Well, we'll have to meet up. I actually used to live down in Jackson, so I know, I know that area relatively well.

All

right, well, beers are on me and Dylan. Maybe we can chip in and get you a flight.

Yeah, yeah. Might have to go to Windsor, but.

Oh, no. Whenever you guys want to talk again, I'm all for it. No, I definitely, definitely appreciate your guys' time. It's again, it's been awesome to be able to just talk shop with somebody who at least relatively understands what we're all going through.

And I mean, let's be honest, Matt, you can't probably have some of these same conversations with some of your subs. And I know, I sure as hell can't talk to my GCs the same way. So

no, it, it it's a cool platform. Cause we can kind of pull the filters off.

Yeah. Yep, absolutely.

Yep. Any, where can they find you?

LinkedIn, Facebook just Andy Zeller side company, precision turnkey solutions. So precision tks.com. Yeah, basically. If you guys can type in my name. I know there's actually an, I think an Indiana or Illinois football player who almost makes the NFL that has the same name. So good luck trying to find me, but no, no, I'm on LinkedIn, Facebook.

Yeah. Anybody's anything feel free to reach out.

Awesome. Any as great having you we'll definitely do a follow-up at some point talk problems and yeah, I went back to Travers and the Detroit area for is my wife's family is, you know, all across Michigan. So I went back for Christmas, but we do not like to, I mean, I'm in the snow right now, but.

Like you can play golf here on new year's day. It was kind of like the weather this year too. So we you know, we try not to, I'd rather go to like South, South in the winter if he has to numbered, but yeah, no, definitely. At some point we'll be back. We got a, we're a blue household, so.

At least I'm converted blue.

No green Oscar.

So, so I moved up in 94 and if I can survive the 94 and 96 seasons as a Husker in Michigan, many times. So. Yeah, no. So, I mean, I'll be back. I actually go back to Michigan quite a bit for, for different things. And that would be back for Ohio state game whenever those happen again. So sounds good. Right on.

All right, guys, this has been. Definitely probably our, one of our longer episodes, but a great episode on, on tech, on tools on laser scanning, BIM, really, you know, going through a lot of stuff.

I know we'll do a follow-up episode with Andy on. Problems. We you know, I think the three of us would be actually a good panel for that design side trade side, GC side of the table for that conversation and some of the problems, some of the coordination things that we have. And, you know, we'll, we'll do these live more often, so thank you everybody for, for tuning in and watching here, we appreciate you.

And that's going to be this episode of the construction corner podcast until next time.